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Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan

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1 Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:08 pm

Risk


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Hey all,

I'm posting to let you know about the competition we are going to be hosting at Lynn's Audio Video in Logan. It's being held on July 2nd, 2011 at the grand opening of HS Customs - 2790 North Main Street. It's a casual event, not sponsered by any official body, but we will have awards and prizes for the winners and participants. Here's a link to my blog about it:

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and a link to my Facebook:

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The blog has a list of the rules and classes/divisions we are using. Please comment, ask questions, or share this info as you see fit. These events are always more fun with more people, so help me get the word out!

Risk

2 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:50 pm

fernando

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Troll
will be there

3 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:53 pm

xseveredveganx

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Gawddamnit. I always have to work.


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4 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:36 pm

kahoproductionz

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summersoundoff.blogspot wrote:Street Class: Street class vehicles generally exhibit no charging system upgrades, little to no sound reinforcement and standard, or "off the shelf", enclosure designs. These vehicles also employ no more than 500 watts RMS system power.
^^^seems kinda on the small side, huh? just wondering! THIS "Class" or "Division" will be quite small then? I mean, participant wise scratch

I dunno... maybe it's just me!

5 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:22 pm

Risk


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kahoproductionz wrote:THIS "Class" or "Division" will be quite small then? I mean, participant wise scratch

I dunno... maybe it's just me!

No, you are correct this one will be the smaller of the two I suspect. But also remember that a vehicle must meet 2 of the modified criteria:

summersoundoff.blogspot.com wrote:In general, the system must meet two of the modified criteria to be moved into that class (i.e. charging upgrades AND sound reinforcement, or custom enclosure AND more than 500 watts of power).

I hope that the divisions will be pretty equal, but probably we'll end up with a little heavier bias on the modified side. Thanks for pointing this out, I'm sure other people will notice the same thing and I'm glad to be able to answer it up front. Smile

Risk

6 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:52 pm

xseveredveganx

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So you guys plan on having all the subwoofer manufacturer's specs on hand? If you plan on judging by cubic inch of displacement, better have a book as thick as the bible.

You won't have specs of custom builds where the driver can have a longer voice coil, thus providing more xmax. Also, my DD doesn't have much xmax... but it still throws like crazy.

I feel the "cubic inch displacement" isn't thought out very well. Just my $.02.


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7 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:54 pm

xseveredveganx

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Also, at what impedance and voltage are you guys going off of for the "500rms" power?

My Sundown SAZ-3000D makes 800rms at 4ohms. That puts me in the 'modified' class at a very unfair disadvantage. Sad


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8 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:33 pm

Risk


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xseveredveganx wrote:So you guys plan on having all the subwoofer manufacturer's specs on hand?

No, I plan on having the internet on hand. So far I haven't had any trouble getting the specs I need from the manufacturer's web sites. But I grant you this might get tricky with things like . . .

xseveredveganx wrote:You won't have specs of custom builds where the driver can have a longer voice coil, thus providing more xmax.

If that becomes an issue I'll jump off that bridge when I come to it. I ran several competitions in SLC over the last 10 years and I never had anybody with a custom built woofer attend. Perhaps that means my events were lame and nobody wanted to be there, but perhaps it also means this isn't a problem I'll run into this time.

xseveredveganx wrote:I feel the "cubic inch displacement" isn't thought out very well. Just my $.02.

I really appreciate that. I'd love to hear some alternative solutions, perhaps some methods that you have found effective in the past. I have tried several different methods in the past and this is the most fair that I have found, but that certainly doesn't mean it's the best one. Please give me some ideas for my future events. This one on July 2 is the first of the series - I'll be having 2 more this summer - so if things don't work out quite the way we want we can make some changes and do better the next time. That said, I hope you'll still come and compete, or at least come watch. I think this is going to be a fun event, but it'll be better if guys like you come, observe, compete and then tell me your thoughts. I hope to see you there!

xseveredveganx wrote:Also, at what impedance and voltage are you guys going off of for the "500rms" power?

14.4 volts is a pretty standard number and most manufacturers provide ratings at that voltage, so we'll use that. The impedance will be based on the calculated impedance of your actual woofer system. So if you're running 1 ohm at your amp, we'll look at the manufacturer's ratings at 1 ohm, 14.4 volts.

xseveredveganx wrote:My Sundown SAZ-3000D makes 800rms at 4ohms. That puts me in the 'modified' class at a very unfair disadvantage.

If your amp actually makes 3000 at 1 ohm and that's the load you are running, it seems like the other guys would be at the disadvantage. Very Happy

But the main thing to remember here is that your system needs to meet 2 criteria to be moved to modified - your RMS power is only one of them. My experience is that guys who qualify for modified rarely make it based on their power output. Almost always it's for the other things - enclosure, charging system, etc.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope we can talk some more.

Risk

9 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:17 pm

kahoproductionz

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hey Risk, maybe you could(next time) go by "cone area"... it might make things a little easier, simplified for those who are NEW(to the hobby/sport) and might want to compete. I'm sure a NEWBIE gonna look at your requirements and be scratching their heads tryna figure which class and/or division they should be in.

I'm not saying your rules and classifications are no good, I'm just saying that there is an easier way of doing things when it comes to sorting competitors out. makes it easier for YOU as well as the competitors, you know?


The division break down is done by cone area of your subwoofer. Take the diameter of the subwoofer and half it that gives you radius, then (radius) x (radius) x (3.14) x (the number of subwoofers you have) = the total cone area.


Class A - 1-101 sq. inches

Class B - 102 - 160 sq. inches

Class C - 161 - 260 sq. inches

Class D - 261 - 354 sq. inches

Class E - 355 + sq. inches


Round Subwoofer Breakdown

6.5” = 33.18 sq. inches
8” = 50.26 sq. inches
10” = 78.54 sq. inches
12” = 113.09 sq. inches
13” = 132.73 sq. inches
15” = 176.71 sq. inches
18” = 254.46 sq. inches
21” = 346.36 sq. inches

Square Subwoofer Breakdown

10” = 100 sq. inches
12” = 144 sq. inches
15” = 225 sq. inches
18” = 324 sq. inches



then if you wanted to break it down by wattage, can do an "Old School" Classification! like THIS:


Old School 1000w - systems of wattage between 501w-1000w RMS(@ final Ohm load)
Old School 500w - systems of wattage up to 500w RMS(@ final Ohm load)




just a couple more pennies!

10 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:20 pm

xseveredveganx

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Definitely. It seems like a lot of the rules are relatively subjective. A 'custom' enclosure could be anything someone made in their backyard, either by the manufacturer's suggested guidelines or actually utlizing some types of acoustic theories.

All of us here swear by the dB Drag book. In my past 3 years of competing, it's by far the most fair and levels the playing field fairly well.

Most manufacturers rate their amplifiers at either a 12.8volt or 14.4volt rating. Unfortunately for me, my car runs at 13.8volts.

And who says that someone will be running their amplifier at 4ohms or .25ohm? Very Happy Power rating is very subjective.



dB Drag rules all day.


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11 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:20 pm

xseveredveganx

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Meh. I'll still say I'm running my amplifier at 4ohms. Very Happy


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12 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:29 pm

kahoproductionz

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summersoundoff.blogspot wrote:Each competitor will get 2 judging runs. The louder of the 2 runs will be recorded as the competitor's top score of the day.
^^^ I LIKE THIS!!! I think Cali Audio should do this instead of brackets, simpified and makes the "competition" day shorter... more time to give demos and show people equipment being used and Q&A and stuff like that to better educate(hint hint) other competitors! not to mention MORE time for RAFFLES!!! nah nah, I kid I kid!!! woot

13 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:44 pm

xseveredveganx

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Threw it to the dogs.
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Hopefully some other people that are into competing will show up!


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14 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:10 pm

fernando

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kahoproductionz wrote:
summersoundoff.blogspot wrote:Each competitor will get 2 judging runs. The louder of the 2 runs will be recorded as the competitor's top score of the day.
^^^ I LIKE THIS!!! I think Cali Audio should do this instead of brackets, simpified and makes the "competition" day shorter... more time to give demos and show people equipment being used and Q&A and stuff like that to better educate(hint hint) other competitors! not to mention MORE time for RAFFLES!!! nah nah, I kid I kid!!! woot
I THINK THE RAFFLE WOULD BE A GOOD HIGHLIGHT OF THE EVENT

15 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:27 pm

Risk


New Member
xseveredveganx wrote:It seems like a lot of the rules are relatively subjective. A 'custom' enclosure could be anything someone made in their backyard, either by the manufacturer's suggested guidelines or actually utlizing some types of acoustic theories.

You're absolutely right - a lot of this stuff is subjective. This is why the judges will have the final say regarding placement. I know it's not a perfect system, but due to the subjective nature of car audio in general I've tried to come up with a "catch-all" system as best I could. But I think we will all know whether someone threw together a particle board box in their back yard or actually took the time to analyze their system's performance and build a box based on their car, speaker, amplifier, etc. A purpose-built SPL box will certainly be more obvious as such than a backyard throw together box.

xseveredveganx wrote:And who says that someone will be running their amplifier at 4ohms or .25ohm? Power rating is very subjective.

Meh. I'll still say I'm running my amplifier at 4ohms.

Well, the judges will say. Very Happy We know from the registration sheet exactly what woofers and coil configuration you'll have, and we'll know what kind of amplifier you'll be running, so we'll be able to get a pretty good idea of what *possible* impedance loads you could have. For example, the guy who registered with 2 Alpine SWR1243D woofers and a Rockford T1500BD can really only be running either 1 or 4 ohms. To some degree I'll have to take your word for it, but I think we can all agree that someone with a 3000 watt, 1 ohm amplifier who only loaded it to 4 ohms is really doing themselves a disservice in the output department. not to mention that you'll have ample opportunity to check out everyone else's cars during the event, and guys like you who know systems and electrical theory will be able to call BS almost right away - especially if it's someone in your class.

But, if it helps everyone feel warm and fuzzy about things I can throw a DMM on all the car's as they pull in and verify the load as correct based on the registration info. but I'd rather just trust you.

kahoproductionz wrote:hey Risk, maybe you could(next time) go by "cone area"... it might make things a little easier, simplified for those who are NEW(to the hobby/sport) and might want to compete. I'm sure a NEWBIE gonna look at your requirements and be scratching their heads tryna figure which class and/or division they should be in.

I think you're totally correct, but I have one concern reqarding square instead of cubic inches. 10 years ago I had great success with this system, but then some products we lovingly call "super woofers" came along and really made this a more difficult breakdown. I'm sure you know the kinds of things I'm refering to - W7, L7, T9500, etc., etc., etc. The issue I had 3 years back was that guys with a basic sub (say, a JL W1 or something) would technically fall into the same class as guys with a super sub (a W7 or similar). All things being equal (rated power, speced box, etc.) the W7 is going to kick ass and take names all day long. Adding excursion to the mix moved these super woofers to the next class up, meaning that single W7's were now running with multiple W1's. Since the displacement is so similar (1-12W7 makes 96.9 cubic inches versus, for instance, 3-12W1's which make 91.5 cubic inches) the difference should come down to enclosure design and install application, again assuming all other things are equal (thus the power divisions). While I agree that square inches is much, much easier to figure and allows me to just have a simple chart, like the one you posted, of common woofer sizes and their standard surface area, I think it leaves out one critical dimension.

That said, I may eat my words after July 2. In actual practice 3 basic 12's may blow 1 super 12 out of the water and I'll feel really stupid for overthinking this. But again, I really hope some of you guys come, observe, and make suggestions based on what you see. I'd love if you'd compete, especially for the reason you pointed out . . .

kahoproductionz wrote:more time to give demos and show people equipment being used and Q&A and stuff like that to better educate(hint hint) other competitors!

. . . but just having you guys there would be awesome.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I really appreciate all the time you're giving me. I may not have the experience with competing that you all do, but I'm pretty good technically/electrically/acoustically and I hope someday I can offer some assistance to repay the favors.

Risk

16 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:31 pm

Risk


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xseveredveganx wrote:Threw it to the dogs.
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Hopefully some other people that are into competing will show up!

Thanks for doing that!

fernando wrote:I THINK THE RAFFLE WOULD BE A GOOD HIGHLIGHT OF THE EVENT

There will be a few things going on like this. HS is doing a motor blow and car smash that will have prizes, and we'll have giveaways and prizes for the competitors, as well as for the participants and observers. I want this to have a little something for everyone, so definately plan on some freebies and schwag!

Risk

17 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:33 pm

xseveredveganx

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The "super drivers" are behind the times these days.

DD > JL. I'll put up my single DD 9515G against a pair of JL 13W7's...

I'm definitely excited to see more competitions popping up in Utah. I was getting sick of driving Idaho. And Idaho!? Seriously? Idaho had competitions and Utah didn't. Didn't make any sense to me.
If a judge asked me to disconnect my leads so they could read my coils, I'd tell him to go fly a kite.


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18 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:45 pm

Risk


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xseveredveganx wrote:The "super drivers" are behind the times these days.

DD > JL. I'll put up my single DD 9515G against a pair of JL 13W7's...

haha I'm not saying the W7 is the greatest woofer ever, I'm simply using that as an example. I'd love to see your DD put the beat down on some W7's!


xseveredveganx wrote:If a judge asked me to disconnect my leads so they could read my coils, I'd tell him to go fly a kite.

Don't worry, I won't ask you to disconnect anything. I'll just read it at the amplifier. Very Happy Or i'll just trust your word. thanks again for your feedback and for posting this on the other forums.

Risk

19 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:52 pm

RE_XXX

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SSPS!
This could get interesting for us high powered boys.

Ill take my crossfire against 4 w7s

You should just do db drag rules....as thats what all of us are designed around...lol

20 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:10 pm

xseveredveganx

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Reading at the amplifier won't give you the actual impedance. Every time I've done it, it fluctuates quite a bit.

I'm also curious where to find the xmax of my 9515G... I can't even find it.


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21 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:29 pm

mcbuggin


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xseveredveganx wrote:Definitely. It seems like a lot of the rules are relatively subjective. A 'custom' enclosure could be anything someone made in their backyard, either by the manufacturer's suggested guidelines or actually utlizing some types of acoustic theories.

All of us here swear by the dB Drag book. In my past 3 years of competing, it's by far the most fair and levels the playing field fairly well.

Most manufacturers rate their amplifiers at either a 12.8volt or 14.4volt rating. Unfortunately for me, my car runs at 13.8volts.

And who says that someone will be running their amplifier at 4ohms or .25ohm? Very Happy Power rating is very subjective.



dB Drag rules all day.
Watch your mouth about the .25 ohm thing plus it's .23
anyway

22 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:32 pm

xseveredveganx

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Oh yeah. You can't run an amplifier below it's rated impedance rating. Nor can you give it a higher voltage than it's rated at.











































troll


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23 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:38 pm

mcbuggin


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xseveredveganx wrote:Reading at the amplifier won't give you the actual impedance. Every time I've done it, it fluctuates quite a bit.

I'm also curious where to find the xmax of my 9515G... I can't even find it.
All i can find on the AQ site is useable throw and I know the number they have can't be right. I know i saw some place a while back the DD's have around 16mm not sure though. Why do you care cameron you have to make coffee anyhow lol

24 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:40 pm

xseveredveganx

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GAWDFUGGINGDAMNIT.


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25 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:46 pm

Risk


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RE_XXX wrote:You should just do db drag rules....as thats what all of us are designed around...lol

We're basically there. DB Drag is what I used to compete in (eons ago, mind you) so it's the format I've tried to model this after. With the exception of adding Xmax to the equation, I'm using the Street/Street Max divisions but trying to simplify some of the installation restrictions so as not to "nit-pick" every last detail of the car. They've really fine-tuned their format and it's very good, I'm just looking to simplify things a bit. Plus, as I have previously mentioned, I think Xmax needs to be considered. I guess we'll see if I'm right or if I'm an idiot. I won't be surprised if it's the latter. Surprised lol

xseveredveganx wrote:Reading at the amplifier won't give you the actual impedance. Every time I've done it, it fluctuates quite a bit.

with the amplifier off it should read close enough to round it to the nearest manufacturer's rating. We're just trying to get the closest whole number. If you have a dual 2 ohm speaker, you're either at 1 or 4 ohms. If I throw a meter on your amp a get a range of .8 to 1.5 I'm pretty confident that your wired in parallel and your running at 1 ohm. That's the number i would go off of.

xseveredveganx wrote:I'm also curious where to find the xmax of my 9515G... I can't even find it.

niether can I. Thanks for pointing that out. I just emailed DD tech support so I am sure I'll have the info soon. i'll repost what I hear.

Risk

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