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Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan

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26 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:53 pm

Vmann

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Mel and Cam, I think AQ and DD rate their woofers by "suspension travel", something like 65mm for the 1500 series. In reality the Xmax is quite a bit lower. I know 65mm of travel on those drivers is about the limits of the tipple joint. crap

I really want to thank you guy's at Lynn's for hosting the competition. I'm definitely thrilled and will try my hardest to be there and to participate.

To be honest though, I don't like the class's broken down by displacement, unless frequency is also factored in. As higher displacement woofers may be considered "super woofers", watt for watt they are a LOT less efficient in terms of actual sound pressure compared to lower displacement drivers.

I personally think the only way to truly level the playing field is to go by: Number of drivers + size + modifications + power, in about that order.

That is just my .02 about the classification. It is really cool that you guy's are going to have a competition!





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27 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:20 pm

Risk


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Vmann wrote:Mel and Cam, I think AQ and DD rate their woofers by "suspension travel", something like 65mm for the 1500 series. In reality the Xmax is quite a bit lower. I know 65mm of travel on those drivers is about the limits of the tipple joint. crap

That's what I found, too. 80mm for the 9515 is the only excursion spec I could find, which is an accurate number but not a standard rating that I could use to compare it with other speakers.

vmann wrote:I really want to thank you guy's at Lynn's for hosting the competition. I'm definitely thrilled and will try my hardest to be there and to participate.

Thanks a ton. I hope we can do this a couple times this year, and make it a yearly thing. We used to get some good attendance at Car Wars when I ran those, but once I left they quit doing it. It's time we got back at it!

vmann wrote:To be honest though, I don't like the class's broken down by displacement, unless frequency is also factored in. As higher displacement woofers may be considered "super woofers", watt for watt they are a LOT less efficient in terms of actual sound pressure compared to lower displacement drivers.

I personally think the only way to truly level the playing field is to go by: Number of drivers + size + modifications + power, in about that order.

You're totally right. if this displacement thing turns out a bust I'll go back to square inches and do it the old DB Drag way. Tried and true was never a bad thing. Thanks again guys.

Risk

28 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:49 pm

Vmann

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Risk wrote:

Thanks a ton. I hope we can do this a couple times this year, and make it a yearly thing. We used to get some good attendance at Car Wars when I ran those, but once I left they quit doing it. It's time we got back at it!


You ran car wars? That is awesome and we owe you a ton of thanks! I was there in 2008, with the black Acura that broke down due to electrical problems. Ha ha, I've come a ways since then thank goodness...


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29 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:02 pm

Risk


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Vmann wrote:
You ran car wars? That is awesome and we owe you a ton of thanks! I was there in 2008, with the black Acura that broke down due to electrical problems. Ha ha, I've come a ways since then thank goodness...

Yes I did. I knew I recognized you! 2008 was my last year before I moved to Logan. I've tried since then to get the guys up here to buy the equipment to get a soundoff going, but it took until this year to make it happen. Persistance pays off! But anybody who attended Car Wars will recognize the format and operations. The only difference this time is I added Xmax to the equation. deadhorse lol

Those events were a lot of fun! I'm glad you came and thanks for your support. I know Logan is a bit of a drive, but if we get a good turn out I'll be able to talk to the bosses into paying for events in the SLC area and doing more each year. That way more people can come and these things will just bigger and more fun!

Looking forward to some loud cars guys. Thanks.


Risk

30 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 pm

kahoproductionz

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summersoundoff.blogspot wrote:This competition is intended for the fun and entertainment of the amateur car audio enthusiast.
^^^sorry Seth, you outta this one! haha!

31 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:30 pm

kahoproductionz

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hey Risk? how many you got "pre-registered" already? if you dont mind me asking.

32 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:39 pm

Risk


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kahoproductionz wrote:hey Risk? how many you got "pre-registered" already? if you dont mind me asking.

ummmm . . . not enough. 2 paid and done and another dozen waiting for payment. Experience tells me that the vast majority will wait until the last 3 days, and another chunk will register the morning of. I expect 30 this year, but my boss thinks we'll have way more than that (Lynn's did a USACi event a few years back and got 55 cars there, and 50 of them registered in 48 hours before the show). But I'm being a little more conservative being that this is a new format for most people and a new show. I'll be happy with 30.

Also, my radio adds didn't start until today about it, and I know that's late but it should drive some more registrations. Thist sort of thing is word of mouth though, mostly, so hopefully the more we talk about it the more people will come. I really appreciate all your involvment just chatting with me here. i'm sure this will help a great deal.

Risk

33 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:50 pm

Vmann

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Here are numbers for my car, based on amplifier power and DIY enclosure, I already know I am in MOD class.

So Fi Q15, SD = 125.55 square" X 1.1" Peak to Peak xmax = 138.105? cubic inches of displacement potential. Mod X?

For My RE10's, SD = 48.05 X 2 = 96.1 X 0.71 xmax = 68.231? Mod 2?


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34 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:55 pm

RE_XXX

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your in my class josh Smile

35 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:00 pm

kahoproductionz

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summersoundoff.blogspot wrote:Modified Class: Modified class vehicles generally exhibit exstensive charging system upgrades, extensive use of sound reinforcement and custom built or purpose designed enclosures. These vehicles also employ greater than 500 watts RMS system power.

M1: up to and including 40 cubic inches of displacement
M2: 40.1 up to and including 75 cubic inches of displacement
M3: 75.1 up to and including 130 cubic inches of displacement
MX: anything greater than 130.1 cubic inches of displacement


hehe, I thought he asked which class... my bad! wow



Last edited by kahoproductionz on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:06 pm; edited 2 times in total

36 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:04 pm

Vmann

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RE_XXX wrote:your in my class josh Smile

finger


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37 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:07 pm

kahoproductionz

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Team Rarefaction all in the same Class thumbs

38 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:24 pm

Vmann

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kahoproductionz wrote:Team Rarefaction all in the same Class thumbs


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39 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:33 pm

xseveredveganx

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Vmann wrote:Here are numbers for my car, based on amplifier power and DIY enclosure, I already know I am in MOD class.

So Fi Q15, SD = 125.55 square" X 1.1" Peak to Peak xmax = 138.105? cubic inches of displacement potential. Mod X?

For My RE10's, SD = 48.05 X 2 = 96.1 X 0.71 xmax = 68.231? Mod 2?

Wow... serious... Wow.



wowflash wtf


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40 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:40 pm

kahoproductionz

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Vmann wrote:
kahoproductionz wrote:Team Rarefaction all in the same Class thumbs


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^^^how many Db'z would THESE stickers add??? hehe!!!

41 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:44 pm

Risk


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Vmann wrote:Here are numbers for my car, based on amplifier power and DIY enclosure, I already know I am in MOD class.

So Fi Q15, SD = 125.55 square" X 1.1" Peak to Peak xmax = 138.105? cubic inches of displacement potential. Mod X?

For My RE10's, SD = 48.05 X 2 = 96.1 X 0.71 xmax = 68.231? Mod 2?

You are correct sir. I'll assume you are also correct about being in modified (you probably have a pretty well-designed enclosure, a big amp and maybe more). Admittedly you make the cutoff for ModX by a very small margin so with your 15 you'll have an uphill battle. Your 10's though are pretty comfortably in the mix of ModII so that will be quite a bit more interesting, I think. In either case, your application and enclosure design will probably be the difference.

The immediate, and most obvious question, is does that seem accurate and resonable? I struggled about adding one more class before street/mod X for exactly this reason. Guys who barely make the cutoff are going against guys with unlimited amounts of woofers. That cutoff has to happen somewhere, but I still wonder if 130.1 cu.in. is too low. What about a street/mod IV? 130.1 to 160 (or there about)? I'd love some feedback about this one. It's the one real concern I had about displacement based divisions.

Risk

42 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:56 pm

xseveredveganx

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This is what I've been saying the whole time. Since you're trying to make it 'fair' for everyone, you're really going to have a hard time doing so. Some people, not unlike ourselves, have a much stronger knowledge of this sport. We have an advantage because we take it upon ourselves to learn about this, not just pay Best Buy or another random shop. If you omit the xmax x sd rule and go exclusively off of sd, it'll be a much more level playing field. California Audio did this and had a great competition. Most SPL drivers have low xmax but a tall top plate on the motor. However, having 4-10's with 1-15 was kind of whack in my opinion.
Also maybe instead of taking the enclosure into account, maybe consider the charging system. We have guys running 2-7+ batteries on the team.

Josh, Tank, myself, and probably others will be up against guys with 2 18's and 4 15's.

Also, there isn't a wall class. Walls have an obvious advantage over a no wall setup.


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43 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:28 am

Vmann

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Risk wrote:
You are correct sir. I'll assume you are also correct about being in modified (you probably have a pretty well-designed enclosure, a big amp and maybe more). Admittedly you make the cutoff for ModX by a very small margin so with your 15 you'll have an uphill battle. Your 10's though are pretty comfortably in the mix of ModII so that will be quite a bit more interesting, I think. In either case, your application and enclosure design will probably be the difference.

The immediate, and most obvious question, is does that seem accurate and resonable? I struggled about adding one more class before street/mod X for exactly this reason. Guys who barely make the cutoff are going against guys with unlimited amounts of woofers. That cutoff has to happen somewhere, but I still wonder if 130.1 cu.in. is too low. What about a street/mod IV? 130.1 to 160 (or there about)? I'd love some feedback about this one. It's the one real concern I had about displacement based divisions.

Risk

I think if one more class where to be added, a "wall" type class might be the most appropriate. I'd personally like to see a window line rule Cool



xseveredveganx wrote:This is what I've been saying the whole time. Since you're trying to make it 'fair' for everyone, you're really going to have a hard time doing so. Some people, not unlike ourselves, have a much stronger knowledge of this sport. We have an advantage because we take it upon ourselves to learn about this, not just pay Best Buy or another random shop. If you omit the xmax x sd rule and go exclusively off of sd, it'll be a much more level playing field. California Audio did this and had a great competition. Most SPL drivers have low xmax but a tall top plate on the motor. However, having 4-10's with 1-15 was kind of whack in my opinion.
Also maybe instead of taking the enclosure into account, maybe consider the charging system. We have guys running 2-7+ batteries on the team.

Josh, Tank, myself, and probably others will be up against guys with 2 18's and 4 15's.

Also, there isn't a wall class. Walls have an obvious advantage over a no wall setup.

Yea, going against some of those guys with 4 10's was intense, but the reasoning for it was indeed wack... I wasnt going to say anything, but they asked if everyone thought the rules where OK, I told them I hate to be that guy, but I did feel that condensing the two classes was a bad idea. I was told "10's don't hit that hard" crap

They where right though, 10's don't hit that hard, hu O'brien..?

troll


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44 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:46 am

Risk


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xseveredveganx wrote:This is what I've been saying the whole time. Since you're trying to make it 'fair' for everyone, you're really going to have a hard time doing so. Some people, not unlike ourselves, have a much stronger knowledge of this sport. We have an advantage because we take it upon ourselves to learn about this, not just pay Best Buy or another random shop.

Which is why you'll be in the mod class with other knowledgable people, not the street class with guys running stock electrical systems with pre-fab boxes.

xseveredveganx wrote:If you omit the xmax x sd rule and go exclusively off of sd, it'll be a much more level playing field. California Audio did this and had a great competition. Most SPL drivers have low xmax but a tall top plate on the motor.

I don't disagree regarding xmax vs. xmax x sd, but I don't entirely agree either. After July 2 we'll know for sure.

xseveredveganx wrote:However, having 4-10's with 1-15 was kind of whack in my opinion.

Josh, Tank, myself, and probably others will be up against guys with 2 18's and 4 15's.

So you think I should add a street/mod IV class? Where should the cutoff be? Assume with me that cubic inches is still a valid way to do this, where should the next class be divided?

xseveredveganx wrote:Also maybe instead of taking the enclosure into account, maybe consider the charging system. We have guys running 2-7+ batteries on the team.

Already done. The criteria are enclosure design, vehicle reinforcement, charging system upgrades, and power. Multiple batteries will certainly count towards modified.

xseveredveganx wrote:Also, there isn't a wall class. Walls have an obvious advantage over a no wall setup.

vmann wrote:I think if one more class where to be added, a "wall" type class might be the most appropriate. I'd personally like to see a window line rule.

Like a division based on boxes that go over the horizontal window plane of the vehicle? We can simply exclude boxes that go over the window line entirely, rather than making a whole class for that stuff. Or we can make a "no rules" class where guys can put together whatever they want. I haven't had trouble with walls mopping up their respective classes in the past, so I'm not sure the advantage of a wall is "obvious" as much as it is "available" if properly applied.

What about the displacement cutoff for III/X? Is 130.1 too low? Should there be another class in there to pull the multiple 15's and 18's further out? Where should that cutoff be? Thanks guys.

Risk

45 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:06 am

Vmann

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After crunching a few number, I think the III/X cutoff should maybe be 160-170, this would keep all of the single 15" users with the people running 12's in pairs.

I derived the number from a pair of 12's with a larger SD and slightly lower xmax, or a slightly lower SD and higher xmax.

Example: 2x MTX 9500 12's would be 167.78. A pair of 12's being probably the most common "big" system can fit right in, before pushing it to MX class with the 18's and multi 15 installs.




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46 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:11 am

Risk


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Vmann wrote:After crunching a few number, I think the III/X cutoff should maybe be 160-170, this would keep all of the single 15" users with the people running 12's in pairs.

I derived the number from a pair of 12's with a larger SD and slightly lower xmax, or a slightly lower SD and higher xmax.

Example: 2x MTX 9500 12's would be 167.78. A pair of 12's being probably the most common "big" system can fit right in, before pushing it to MX class with the 18's and multi 15 installs.

So leave the number of classes alone, but change the 130.1 to 170.1? Or add a IV class from 130.1 to 170, then X class from 170.1 and up?

47 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:17 am

Vmann

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Risk wrote:
Vmann wrote:After crunching a few number, I think the III/X cutoff should maybe be 160-170, this would keep all of the single 15" users with the people running 12's in pairs.

I derived the number from a pair of 12's with a larger SD and slightly lower xmax, or a slightly lower SD and higher xmax.

Example: 2x MTX 9500 12's would be 167.78. A pair of 12's being probably the most common "big" system can fit right in, before pushing it to MX class with the 18's and multi 15 installs.

So leave the number of classes alone, but change the 130.1 to 170.1? Or add a IV class from 130.1 to 170, then X class from 170.1 and up?

I think the number of class's would be fine, I don't really have any concerns there. Changing the 130.1 to 170 I feel would work great in keeping the bigger, but still more common installs from going MX. My feelings on the window line are; anything over the horizontal plain = MX


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48 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:28 am

Vmann

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My brain isn't functioning tonight, lol

After a second read, maybe adding the 130.1-170 may be really beneficial.

At the last comp at California Audio, there where actually quite a few first time competitors with higher displacement systems.


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49 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:36 am

kahoproductionz

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thumbs

50 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:39 am

Risk


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vmann wrote:I think the number of class's would be fine, I don't really have any concerns there. Changing the 130.1 to 170 I feel would work great in keeping the bigger, but still more common installs from going MX. My feelings on the window line are; anything over the horizontal plain = MX

here's my concern about that.

2-12W3's = 80.6 cubic inches.
2-SWR1243D's = 117.1 cubic inches
2-T9512-4's = 167.78 cubic inches
2-12W7-3's = 193.2 cubic inches

While the W7's are out of the range, those 9500's are probably crushing the r-type's or W3's (these are just for examples. b ut, they are common woofers with average displacement, so they make good examples, I think.) but, with another class from 130.1 to 170, the 9500's are with things like your Fi 15 and probably the DD 9515g, but multiple Fi 15's or similar subs are far away from that.

vmann wrote:My brain isn't functioning tonight, lol

After a second read, maybe adding the 130.1-170 may be really beneficial.

you beat me to it! I was typing this when you posted, lol.

I think adding a IV class solves a lot of this issue. I wanted to add it when I was designing this but I felt it may be unnecessary. You have deftly proved that it is very necessary.

Question then is this: how do you feel about your 15 against 2 9500's? They've got about 30 extra cu.in. on you (rated), but i suspect that won't bother you too much?

Plan on a new class: street/mod IV. thanks again, you guys are the best.

Risk

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