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Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan

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76 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:52 pm

obrien202


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Im really confused as to why I cant compete im not sponsered by anyone and there is 2-3 vehicles I know for sure are 5Db louder than me atleast

77 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:07 pm

Vmann

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obrien202 wrote:Im really confused as to why I cant compete im not sponsered by anyone and there is 2-3 vehicles I know for sure are 5Db louder than me atleast

Have you talked to risk yet and made mention of that?


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78 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:20 pm

Risk


New Member
obrien202 wrote:Im really confused as to why I cant compete im not sponsered by anyone and there is 2-3 vehicles I know for sure are 5Db louder than me atleast

Are you a dealer? A vendor (i.e. you work for a manufacturer or rep firm)? Are you currently competing in another SPL sanctioning body (DB Drag, USACi, etc.)? The only limitations are on competitors with an inside advantage, like dealers who can get gear below cost, in some cases sponsored, or vendors who have unlimited resources (basically). This event is intended for consumers of car audio, not national professionals or manufacturers. As long as you are a consumer and are not in the middle of competing in a national season (regional events are fine) then you are welcome to come compete.

If you have any further questions please feel free to call me at the shop or pm me. I just want this to be a fun, accessible event for everyone. If you have any concerns regarding that goal, please let me know. I'm all ears.

Risk

79 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:23 pm

Risk


New Member
And, to make sure you understand that this goes for everyone, none of my employees will be entering their cars, nor will members of their immediate families. Our company car, the 1971 Honda which has competed in the past, will also not be allowed to enter. Vehicles we have built for HS Customs won't be entering. This isn't to keep out other dealers. It's to keep the environment amateur-friendly. And it goes for all of us at Lynn's, too.

80 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:29 pm

fernando

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looks like its a go obrien

81 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:35 pm

xseveredveganx

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Most of us compete in dB Drag and have in the past. So none of us can compete in this grassroots competition?

Yet another doltish rule. USACi doesn't have a rule stating that dB Drag competitors can't compete in their sanction...


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82 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:41 pm

fernando

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@RISK just emailed you my regerstration

83 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:12 pm

Risk


New Member
xseveredveganx wrote:Most of us compete in dB Drag and have in the past. So none of us can compete in this grassroots competition?

Yet another doltish rule. USACi doesn't have a rule stating that dB Drag competitors can't compete in their sanction...

Did you read what I just posted in response to Obrien? I think the rules and the purpose are pretty clear, but if you have such a hard time with what I'm trying to organize you're welcome to not compete. I think you could offer a lot of insight and value to the other competitors, and I sure wish you'd come and enter, but Cam you seem to have more problem than anyone with this whole event. I really appreciate the opinions you've offered so far and between you, Josh and Mel I've been able to make a few changes and really fine tune this thing. That said, I think you're being a little more disagreeable than is necessary. The rules aren't doltish, nor is the guy who wrote them. I don't appreciate that you said that. Perhaps I haven't written them as clearly as you would have, and for that reason I have benefited greatly from all your input. But let's not throw insults around when the reality is a simple lack of understanding.

Let me reiterate: no vendors, dealers, reps or national competitors. Regional competitors are fine (which I assume most of you are). If this seems out of line for an amatuer, grass roots event, please don't attend. Unless you fall into one of the above categories, I don't see any reason why you couldn't be there.

Risk

84 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:51 pm

xseveredveganx

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Because i'd rather be making money. To be more precise, I can't get the day off and Starbucks is ruining my life. Lol!

Anyway, I apologize for the insult. I did, indeed, misunderstand the rule.
I also apologize for you feeling I've been more disagreeable than others. I really appreciate what you're doing. I really do. But I feel you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel. I understand that you want to keep things fair, but nothing really is. You could even take one's yearly income into account for a class.
Only things I disagree with is the fact that you implement the xmax parameter of the drivers/s as a main determining factors of classes. It's a completely irrelevant parameter to base anything on. I understand that you feel that displacement is a factor, not unlike a stroked and bored Chevrolet small block, but we're dealing with wavelengths.
I feel it is like having a rule based on any other driver's paramater, like fs. It's just a measurement.


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85 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:01 am

Risk


New Member
xseveredveganx wrote:Because i'd rather be making money. To be more precise, I can't get the day off and Starbucks is ruining my life. Lol!

Anyway, I apologize for the insult. I did, indeed, misunderstand the rule.
I also apologize for you feeling I've been more disagreeable than others. I really appreciate what you're doing. I really do. But I feel you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel. I understand that you want to keep things fair, but nothing really is. You could even take one's yearly income into account for a class.
Only things I disagree with is the fact that you implement the xmax parameter of the drivers/s as a main determining factors of classes. It's a completely irrelevant parameter to base anything on. I understand that you feel that displacement is a factor, not unlike a stroked and bored Chevrolet small block, but we're dealing with wavelengths.
I feel it is like having a rule based on any other driver's paramater, like fs. It's just a measurement.

Thanks Cam I really appreciate that.

I understand we don't wee eye to eye on the displacement issue, and I have admitted several times that this may be a waste of time. But I think the idea has merit and we'll know for sure after this weekend.

Also, I have a monsterous tech brief that I have been writing for the last 7 days in my free time that will explain in detail why Xmax is not an irrelevant spec. Many T/S parameters are superfluous to determining classifications, you are correct. But we are, indeed, dealing with wavelengths and the factors that determine the size and shape of the wave are bore and stroke. I'll prove this with my tech brief that will be posted on my blog before the competition on Saturday.

Thanks again. It's really big of you to apologize. I'm very sorry you won't be able to come this weekend. I'm looking forward to meeting all of you.

I'm working on getting Car Concepts to let me come run Car Wars again this year, so perhaps that will be the chance. I'll keep you all posted about that as things come up. In the mean time, see you all Saturday!

Risk

86 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:18 am

xseveredveganx

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Well I understand it is a minorly relative parameter, but not something that's vital to base a competition on. I know xmax is relative to maintain the bl of the driver through it's linear stroke, but it's not everything. If a driver doesn't have the suspension to accommodate said xmax, then you'll be tearing spiders/leads/surrounds.
But like you said, I'm interested to see this happen.

A little reading I ran across.
Neil Middlemiss wrote:This is always an interesting and controversial topic. Every couple of weeks, a debate rages regarding the relevance of high Xmax and whether it is truly valuable to achieving SPL scores. Perhaps the greatest argument is that Digital Designs Audio drivers, who have a very impressive track record in SPL competition, have been routinely tested to show below average Xmax numbers. How is it possible that a driver with limited linear excursion can still be amongst the loudest? The answer is simple and complex all at once: Xmax is relevant to SPL and it's not. Now that I've confused you, let's proceed.

I'll touch on how a speaker makes sound and how it's interpreted at a later time, but let's skip to some ground works. Acceleration is a critical component of creating SPL. The higher the rate of acceleration, the more pressure that can be created. Let's figure out how to get there.

If you've been through any high school physics classes, you're probably very familiar with this equation.

F=m*a

Hey, that looks like Newton's Second Law of Motion. In short, it states that the net force of an object is equal to the product of it's mass and it's rate of acceleration. Of course, we can re-write the simple formula to better suit our needs.

F/m = a

After our spinning, the formula reads that the rate of acceleration is equal to the net force of an object divided by it's mass. Let's apply this to speakers for a moment, shall we? The force of an speaker is determined by the two factors:
1. BL - the combination of the magnetic field strength (B ) and the length of the voice coil in the gap (L)
2. i - the level of input current

Taking that information and our above equation, we can easily translate this to a speaker relevant equation.

(BL* i)/m = a

Let's make some logical conclusions from this formula.

1. Increasing the magnetic field strength (B ) or the length of the voice coil in the gap (L) will increase the rate of acceleration
2. Increasing the level of input current (i) will increase the rate of acceleration
3. Increasing the mass of the driver will decrease the rate of acceleration

Naturally, the inverse of these conclusions holds true as well. For example, if you decrease the moving mass of the driver, the rate of acceleration will increase. Simple stuff, me thinks. Now we have our foundation for understanding why Xmax is and is not relevant to SPL.

We know what we want to have a really loud driver, don't we? Huge BL, ability to take a lot of power, with extremely low moving mass. When looking at thiele/small parameters, we are looking for something with a high BL^2/Re, high power handling, and low Mms. It's odd that Xmax isn't factored into that equation, don't you think? Ahh, but it is, in a sense.

Once we apply current to the voice coil, it moves. Based on the Understanding Power Compression thread, we know that as the voice coil moves out of the gap, BL decreases. It stands to reason that as the voice coil moves out of the gap, BL decreases, and based on our previous conclusions, so does the rate of acceleration! In this sense, high Xmax is a good thing because it means the driver is capable of moving further without an alarming decrease in BL. In this sense, high Xmax is a great thing. A driver that can move great distances while keeping BL very linear can make for a very good, very loud driver. This is handy for competitions like Bass Race, where everyday music is played for longer durations.

With that said, there is another aspect of SPL competitions where high Xmax may not matter so much. In DBDrag style competition, high Xmax is not always critical. Typically, a competitor plays a short burst sine wave near the resonant frequency of the port(s) used in their enclosure. This excites the air mass in the port, causing it to become the primary source of our pressure. Meanwhile, the driver that is exciting the air mass is relatively stationary; it is not excurting itself very much at all. If your driver is only moving +/- 2mm, what is the difference in BL between a driver with 16mm of Xmax and a driver with 100mm of Xmax? Not much at all.

There is one more important consideration in the "high Xmax vs. SPL" equation. Again, looking back at that original equation, we know that high moving mass decreases our rate of acceleration. Let's pretend I'm engineering a driver for a client who wants high Xmax using conventional designs (more on this another day). How do I do so? Quite simple: I add length to the voice coil. There is, however, a caveat to adding length to your voice coil: more wire (be it copper, aluminum, etc) adds mass to the driver as well. This is not a good thing from an SPL standpoint.

As we can clearly see, high Xmax and SPL are not necessarily mutually exclusive; in fact, sometimes they go hand in hand. At the same time, some situations call for very little Xmax. This is why companies like Fi Car Audio deserve more credit than they receive: there is no one answer for every question, but we'll allow you to customize our answer to suit your question.

The point comes back to a daily engineering focal point: where can I afford to make sacrifices for the application? And that ultimately brings us to Newton's Third Law:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction

Also, I really hope you consider doing something based along the lines of BassRace. I know most of us LOVE it.



Last edited by xseveredveganx on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:26 am; edited 1 time in total


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87 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:24 am

RE_XXX

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SSPS!
Hmmmmm......


This could be very interesting.


Whats the loudest you guys have around there???

88 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:25 am

xseveredveganx

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RE_XXX wrote:Hmmmmm......


This could be very interesting.


Whats the loudest you guys have around there???

Mel. troll


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89 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:27 am

RE_XXX

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SSPS!
xseveredveganx wrote:
RE_XXX wrote:Hmmmmm......


This could be very interesting.


Whats the loudest you guys have around there???

Mel. troll


Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........... Im talkin around that area..... Wink

90 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:04 am

fernando

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whos mel? sneaky

91 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:07 am

Vmann

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fernando wrote:whos mel? sneaky

Some old guy with a broken ass car sneaky


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92 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:16 am

xseveredveganx

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Zing! troll


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93 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:27 am

obrien202


Regular
so were do send registration?

94 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:34 am

Vmann

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obrien202 wrote:so were do send registration?

1st Ave & E 44th St, New York, NY 10017


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95 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:53 am

fernando

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Vmann wrote:
obrien202 wrote:so were do send registration?

1st Ave & E 44th St, New York, NY 10017
hahaha or u can email these questions
Name
phone number
email
car (year,make,model)
sub amps (rated power and current impedance)
subs (quantity and model #)
enclosure design (size, design, fb, etc.)
electrical upgrades (alternator, batteries, etc.)
chassis upgrades (sound deadening, concrete, etc.)
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96 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:10 am

mcbuggin


150+ dB Daily
Vmann wrote:
fernando wrote:whos mel? sneaky

Some old guy with a broken ass car sneaky
oh it works still and gets me to work and back every day. I don't drive with it turned up so alot of folks don't know what i got. I think most folks around here are mid 30's to mid 40's but there are a couple that seem like they might be in the upper 140's but we'll see who shows up

97 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:31 pm

RE_XXX

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SSPS!
Well....I sent in my pre-registration information via e-mail.


I was even kind hearted enough to send in my subs parameters... LOL... otherwise they would have never got them.

98 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:19 pm

mcbuggin


150+ dB Daily
what about actual power at 1 ohm?

99 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:31 pm

xseveredveganx

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Senior Member
I think they're going off of what you're nominal impedance is. So what impedance you're running your stereo at...


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100 Re: Summer SoundOff at Lynn's in Logan on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:39 pm

gary2k7


New Member
I'll be there. I do think throwin me in mels n Seth's class is bs! I really think that should be changed. 4 15s and 2 18s off an ass load of power, then me with 2 15s? Not really a fair class imo

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